Skill Transfers - Good Choices, Bad Choices, etc...

Discussion in 'P&D Discussion' started by MartiniHanks, Dec 30, 2016.

  1. MartiniHanks

    MartiniHanks Active Member

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    So i've been laid up for a week with a wrecked back, and had some time to refocus many of my teams. Net effect, i did a pass on skill transfers and formed some opinions based on popular skill transfers, and the announcement for JP v9.6.

    Discussion welcome!

    High-level Conclusions
    • In general, there are four strategies for skill transfers:
      1. Stack a Duplicate (see below for why this is a good idea)
      2. Stack a Utility (see below for why this has limits and good be bad)
      3. Stack a "Bigger Effect" (i.e. a single orb change on the base, a full-board change for the transfer)
      4. Stack a Long CD Active (as a buffer, to absorb skill delay effects)
    • 9.6 will directly affect the best possible choices for many teams
      1. Main Color Matters (in 9.6, if the transfer is the same main color, the target gets a stat boost)
      2. Stats Matter (In 9.6, better stats on the transfer will lead to better benefits for the target)
      3. Stat Boosting by Skill Transfer might be more important that the actual skill transfer (e.g. adding 500 HP to each of your team members is for some teams better than adding actives)
    • Duplicate Stacking is a lot better than people realize
      1. You get the benefit of absorbing skill delay effects
      2. You will get the 9.6 benefits of additional stats
      3. For orb changes, you don't accidentally lose the value of the original orb-change
      4. For utility effects, you don't accidentally lose the option for the original effects
      5. The duplicate doesn't need to be skilled to be high value (because its just there as a stat booster and skill delay absorb)
      6. Being able to absorb skill delay effects can free up latent slots that would have been skill delay resists
    • Utility Skill Transfers are limited and potentially worse than people realize
      1. The main case is when the base card has two utilities in one active. By stacking another utility via skill transfer, you can effectively lose access to the original utilities when you most need one or both of them.
      2. As a good example, there is a trend right now to put Kirin's Boisterous Dance on Reincarnated Minerva (as part of an Arena 3 strategy). By doing this, the lead is great for Arena 3 pairing, but arguably inferior for other content. The key is that Minerva starts with 2 useful effects on a fast CD. The Arena 3 strategy takes advantage of her quick CD very well. But in non-Arena 3 content (e.g. Arena 1) she doesn't need the new utility. In fact, for Arena 1, it would probably be better to have a full-board orb change to make even bigger hits against any water enemies (e.g. Sonia, Saria, Ilm, Kiriko, etc..)
      3. Tifa is another great example, is there any skill at all that adds utility to her? She's a heartbreaker stacked with Dark Izanami for only 2 extra turns. That's insane. For 9.6 she should definitely have a skill transfer added, but its probably only there for the stats and as a skill delay absorber.
     
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  2. ViewtifulGene

    ViewtifulGene MEN... WEARING PINK?!

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    Stat bonuses can be detrimental if they make your more susceptible to triggering damage absorbs.

    Know your role and shut your mouth regarding Sakuya on Minerva. She's often the only unbindable card on the team. Also, I've seen Arena deaths that would have easily been victories if the player only entered with a 15% gravity friend. For Minerva A1, it's usually easier to plan on 2-shotting than to risk a 1% nuke.
     
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  3. Growlanser

    Growlanser :)

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    Hi All,

    I tend to agree with @MartiniHanks on how to use Skill Transfers in the 'new world' of 9.6.

    I don't think the suggestions apply in every case though, like @ViewtifulGene said.
    You will always have specific cases where a stat bonus may not help or a skill inherit is only good for one or two key dungeons

    But I don't think those few cases may nullify that these suggestions will help for 'most' cases. And for most players who aren't in those special cases - like farming Arena1 and readily tackling Arena 2,3 - the suggestions will generally help to improve their teams. And for players doing those special cases - I think the adjustment to requirements for a transfer (making it cheaper at 1mil coins with no Tans) helps making situational swapping much more effective. It also helps Gungho encourage more rolling for new monsters and potential inherits :)

    I know that whenever 9.6 hits I'll probably go on a skill inherit 'spree', doing primarily Duplicates or Bigger-Effects.
     
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  4. Noobzilla

    Noobzilla noobest of the noobs

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    I do a combination of things you mentioned. The rule I follow is:

    1) Cards with short cooldowns like A. Isis, inherit skill is priority over same color match.
    2) Obvious skill upgrades like Sheen on Kanna in RaDra team even if it is off color.
    3) Duplicate cards, if available, for skills that I don't want replaced.
    4) If no duplicate, then I put same color card with really long cooldown usually 15+.

    At the end of the day and overall, proper skills would matter more than the extra stat bonus.. Unless hp is needed to surpass some damage like Hera preempt but that is less common.
     
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  5. HappyNoms

    HappyNoms Ogliarchial collectivist

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    OP seems to undervalue how strong upgrading in better actives can be. All due respect to a dupe inherit, but upgrading a spare bicolor Ilm board on a sub on Minerva Ilm is ludicrous guarenteed sweep damage.

    Saria inherits were just busted on XM subs, etc.

    I think it gets a bad rep from people upgrading a single orb changer to, meh, a double orb changer, or a modest utility, and then crying in their tea over awkward actives management navigation. Everybody is guilty of doing it at some point.

    Minerva with a Hathor gravity has saved my life in arena a lot, but I grant that's a nonobvious specialist case.

    Revo subs seems at least as effective as inherit hp, imho. Though we can see how busted both effects are together when both are here. Lately with revo and hp badge, quite a lot of teams are sitting comfortably over thresholds prior to inherit hp even arriving.
     
  6. MartiniHanks

    MartiniHanks Active Member

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    I like that prioritization. And would only modify it with the same suggestion @HappyNoms has made, that "Bigger Effects" be ranked pretty high compared to duplicates. Even if off-color.
     
  7. MartiniHanks

    MartiniHanks Active Member

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    I 100% agree, "Big Effects" like a full-board Ilm (even if off-color) should be a high priority when possible (and for sure, preferred over a dupe, when they fit). If anything, as @ViewtifulGene and @Noobzilla teaches, the balancing factor needs to be when we need a critical utility active, it has to take the top priority.
     
  8. jlarimore

    jlarimore Well-Known Member

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    IMO, the bigger effect is the safest and best strategy for general purpose skill inheriting. If you have a short cooldown bind clear, is there a disadvantage to eventually charging that into a Raphael active where you get the bind clear, plus a full heal, plus a board reset, plus 2 turns of invincibility? Not in my opinion. You won't be sad you put Raphael on Rozuel for instance. I generally like to inherit additional utility but only if I am not sacrificing the utility of the original skill. An example of this is Yamato on my Yamamoto team. He acts as an orb changer that can pretty much guarantee a kill shot, a heal, and a bind clear. That seems hard to beat. But, an Urd active on top of that does all that and adds a board changer to the team which is much needed.

    The only exception to this is if you have a short cooldown lead/sub where their active is a waste. An example of this is a second Ronove. That active really never needs to be used and is short to the point where you can inherit anything on top of it because you are essentially ignoring that the original active even exists.
     
  9. Iluvatar

    Iluvatar No Longer IAP'ing

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    Bolded can't be stated enough. If you can find the right/perfect SI that is also a color match, more power to you. Most of the time that shouldn't and won't be the reason for doing an SI. If people want to keep themselves out of trouble the best rule is to keep the cards original function in tact (as stated obvious cases when you break this rule). I learned this rule hard and fast when SI was first released and thought SI'ing full board changers on single or double orb changers was smart. Almost every team needs a little bit of everything. Very often a full board change will troll you, so you need a way to fix it, can't do that if all your "fixers" have full board changers themselves.

    It always comes down to the team you are going to run (does said sub have value/use in another team that requires another function?) what subs you have available and then what spares you have to SI onto said cards.
     
  10. philsov

    philsov has sufficient privileges to post here

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    I've been thinking similar along the same vein.

    Cards like Fuma or Hatsume as inherits bring in some welcome stat boosting as light and water teams tend to lack HP or RCV, respectively. But I'll need to manage CDs effectively because odds are a single orb change is going to be worse than whatever the base card is, and being in the valley of "can't use skill, can't not use skill" suuuucks.

    Elementals make for decent SI inherits, with their long CDs. Their stats are on the low end, but it's better than nothing.

    Dupe stacking is now worthwhile, if straight upgrades aren't available.

    My Isis already has Awoken Orochi inherited. Now I'm looking at 676 more HP? OH BABY.

    Sleeper MVP is Archangel Lucifer imo.

    Also since my HP/RCV will be getting boosted by a more significant margin than my ATK, it may alter my teams a bit. I've got Uriel on my Krishna team (e.g.) specifically because of his amazing RCV which lets me bring in Roz and Cao Cao who have like... none. This means I can import Sanada instead for more rows + enhance active :D
     
  11. xer 21

    xer 21 Mathematically the Worst Player on the Forums

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    Saria is a fantastic example of why ignoring colors and stats would still be fine in some situations. Her active is amazing for red teams. as a straight red board changer, there probably isnt a better red board changer other than Urd/verdandi, and given how three of the best red teams right now all need light (Ilm, Minerva and Tsubaki) to activate, no other active comes close. Gadius, maybe, but he's not nearly as consistent.

    I was running Ilm flopping with a hyper maxed saria but wasnt getting off the kind of damage on Kali that i wanted because saria is kinda weak, and i had very few rows or TPAS to actually take advantage of. inheriting a Saria onto my Revo Shiva instantly elevated my team from "I REALLY hope D Kali spawns" to "Kali is toast". could i have inerited Urd for the same effect on Shiva's own team or on other teams? sure, but for me, REvo shiva getting a stat boost is WAY less important than him just actually being there and having a Saria inherit.

    Could i inherit a dupe gadius on Shiva and get stat bonuses? Sure. but the active is a straight downgrade.
     
  12. BonerChamp69

    BonerChamp69 I'm huge

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    I was thinking that earlier that uuvo aa luci has great stats and a longass cd so he is great for stats. Probably put him on Noctis
     
  13. MartiniHanks

    MartiniHanks Active Member

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    For Shiva? I personally will probably go with a dupe because i run Shiva only in situations where i want the active. But if you are looking for a big board change option that is main color fire:
    • Red Sonia
    • Urd
    • Kiriko (faster CD than Saria, but no Haste effect, same board change though)
    • Leilan (even better if you are also already running Takeru)
    And if you are lucky and can ever get extras of this new heroine:


    And if my OP implied that i though it would be bad to still use a great Inherit like Ilm or Saria, my bad. I have spammed Saria and Ilm inherits all over the place on my fire teams - those actives are bonkers good!
     
  14. xer 21

    xer 21 Mathematically the Worst Player on the Forums

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    i mean, thats great if you have endless options, but not everyone does. most people dont. as it is, Shiva is a fantastic stat stick. and, again, as i said, i made an exception specifically for teams requiring light. Urd and Sonia are out. Leilan is fine on her own, and yes, if you own yamato its fantastic, but, that's requiring you to use a specific card for the combo, whereas saria is just saria.

    The only one that's better on its own is kiriko, who's a collab gold from a collab that comes maybe once a year vs a GFE you have a shot at every couple of weeks. Obviously, straight up, Kiriko is better, but you're basically assuming everyone has every card at their disposal.

    most people have saria. her not being on type does NOT make her a bad inherit. she's a fantastic inherit. there's "perfect/ideal" and "really good". It doesnt just drop down to "worthless inherit".
     
  15. MartiniHanks

    MartiniHanks Active Member

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    Who said worthless? I sure didn't. I even literally just said it was my bad for even implying anything close to that.

    I completely agree that Saria is a great choice.

    I actually personally think Saria is better than Kiriko until 9.6 comes to NA. The Haste effect is more valuable to me than the slightly faster CD on Kiriko.

    But i would still consider Red Sonia over both of them for a fire lead that does not need the light orbs from Saria's active. (Or Urd if i knew i wanted the Hearts).
     
  16. xer 21

    xer 21 Mathematically the Worst Player on the Forums

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    seems we both misread, because i missed that in your post, haha. Sorry man.
     
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  17. HappyNoms

    HappyNoms Ogliarchial collectivist

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    Gets a little off topic but I'm 90%+ with Minerva Ilm and wondering how you were dying. I run a Hathor gravity on Minerva though - it makes the kali floor assured. I could see skipping the gravity, getting an awkward Ilm board with no skyfalls and being short. The pairing is very solid though, given a couple routine inherits.

    I've died before playing sloppy on a weird tama spawn, and on sophdet, but both involved some degree of overly casual player error.
     
  18. xer 21

    xer 21 Mathematically the Worst Player on the Forums

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    Yeah the problem was exclusive to L kali and it was mostly due to awkward ilm boards that were too heavy on one color orbjust had everything lumped (player skill there). I had almost no rows or TPAs so the only thing i could do was try to maximize combos but i can tell you you need more than 6 on that team haha. With dkali, the light cards on my team along with ilms dragon killer made her routine, but l kalinwas the issue.

    So i figured i needed more damage and saria is weak there so looked at my red box and shiva was the best in terms of stats and awakenings. Now as long as i throw in a couple red tpas shiva along with antares and god killer can take her down pretty safely. Now the only things that kill my are sopdet, parv, weird tama spawns and flubbing combos.

    I dont have any grav inherits amd only one of my friends has a gravity on their minerva so i dont have the option. And the guy who does have sakuya inherited is like 300 ranks above me so hes never available lol.
     
  19. HappyNoms

    HappyNoms Ogliarchial collectivist

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    Friend if you like. (We might be friends, I didn't scroll.)
    I swapped Minerva^Hathor into team1 slot.
    Five fire latents if you end up going for the puppet cheese later.

    Probably still have a level disparity, but arena is enough stamina you only need to collect a small handful of suitable friends.
     
  20. xer 21

    xer 21 Mathematically the Worst Player on the Forums

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    Sent! Thank you very much!
     

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