[Team Building] Healer Team Appreciation, An Exposition

Discussion in 'Archived Guides' started by windkeeper4, Aug 23, 2013.

  1. Dunamos

    Dunamos Just zis guy, you know?

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    Far be it for me to judge how anyone spends their time. :D If you're like me (and I know I am), grinding through dungeons farming skillup mats only to rage when the supposed x2.5 rate yields 0 skillups is my very least favorite part of this game.
     
  2. MisterDrgn

    MisterDrgn You can't take the sky from me. Staff Member

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    Regardless of whether you have chibi Valk, AAma teams deal far more damage with rows. Also they are better suited to the row playstyle--stall for actives, pop actives, and burst hard. And DQ->Valk gives you the perfect row board when used at the right time. So no, Elia doesn't compete with DQ as an AAma sub.

    That said, the double dark resist is nice for surviving a DQ Hera pre-emptive with Sandal's help. I used to kinda want Elia for this, but NY Sandal is a far better solution (and I was lucky enough to get one).

    Basically, Elia has some niche uses on the team, or she could be nice if you just want to speed-farm some dungeons (though AAma isn't the fastest farming team anyway). It's a question of whether this is enough to justify the obscene investment of skilling up an Elia. Maybe if you don't have DQ? Or better, if you can use her on teams more suited to her, like Sakuya.

    EDIT: That said, I was pretty pumped to go 1/1 on Elia skill-ups today. One down, just 14 to go.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2016
  3. Krehan

    Krehan Well-Known Member

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    So..is raphael a must for the healers teams? as fas as i remember, healers have subpar atk and that dude adds a whooping 5 awaken rows...the full board heart+valky basically gives me a mini nuke+2 turns of absoulte immunity.

    Should I aim for 2 dqxq? or leave i at 1 dqxq 1 raphael?
     
  4. MisterDrgn

    MisterDrgn You can't take the sky from me. Staff Member

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    A strong AAma team already has plenty of burst, and Raph has a niche active. I'd bring him when you need the damage reduction or board clear. When you don't, a second DQ would be better. If you happen to have one.
     
  5. Krehan

    Krehan Well-Known Member

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  6. protoaddict

    protoaddict Active Member

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    I used to agree with this, but the more I play with my AAMA and the closer I get to hypermaxing everyone the more I am starting to see wasted row damage where TPAs would due. There is no argument that rows do more damage, however there are just a lot of dungeons where I feel like I would much rather sacrifice that super level of burst for more HP and resists to survive bigger hits and a higher level of consistency on turns where I am out of actives.

    Right now I feel like the difference between Elia and other options is not pronounced enough, but she is at least interesting enough that I will "work" on her when the opportunity arises (meaning I won't trash drops for points and use them to skill up). But I also think Elia and Grisar are both WAY under powered for 99 point drops and I expect they may get some boost in the near future which may make this discussion very different. If they get an evolution or an extra awakening or even something a simple as a decent stat boost they may suddenly change the way we think of them. I'm almost surprised that they don't have god and devil killer awakenings to be honest, it seems to fit what they do.
     
  7. MisterDrgn

    MisterDrgn You can't take the sky from me. Staff Member

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    Are you talking just specifically about the added survability from bringing Elia over DQ? Because they have the same hp. Elia's dark resist is helpful in a very specific situation (DQ Hera pre-emptive), with NY Sandal (or Raph, or possible Ganesha) being a better option for that situation.

    In what other situation does sacrificing rows increase your survivability?

    (EDIT: For anyone with the optimal Valk/DQ/Venus setup, I can see the value of putting some kind of utility sub in the final spot to up your survivability. So if that's your point, then there's no disagreement. But I don't think it matters whether that utility sub has TPA...the added benefit of tossing in one TPA sub is pretty minor.)

    I don't think Elia and Grisar are underpowered for farmables. It's possible that GungHo will buff them someday, but whether it's in a couple months, or a couple years, or never, who knows. They've been around for a very long time already, with no buffs.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2016
  8. protoaddict

    protoaddict Active Member

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    Just speaking more in general. There are a number of dungeons I have gone through now where if I would have used the TPA team it would have been basically the same result as the rows team because of the wasted damage. TPAs are better than rows in situations where you have exhausted your actives and only have 4 light orbs on the map, which does happen though granted it is a corner case and not exactly something to be planned for. In these cases you are increasing your survivability, if only because you have a chance to make an attack and maybe kill the opponent before they one hit you (in some dungeons once again.) where as if you were on rows and couldn't make one you may just be dead baring and unreal skyfall.

    Obviously what monsters are good is highly subjective based on the dungeon you are running and there is no perfect team. I think a very strong argument could now be made for something like the new Baal even outside of multiplayer dungeons to be played over something like A. Venus, since Venuses active is only good if you don't get orb trolled, where Baal helps prevent orb trolling in the first place.The power of rows vs TPA also changes when you confronted with a 7x6 map or maps with limited colors.
     
  9. MisterDrgn

    MisterDrgn You can't take the sky from me. Staff Member

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    The thing is, there are very few situations where there is any difference between making a 4-orb TPA attack and making no attack on an AAma team.
    a) Generally speaking, a 4-orb attack isn't gonna kill anything important anyway.
    b) AAma teams don't have to kill things quickly, except in rare situations. That's the advantage of the team.

    Basically, being "orb-trolled" isn't an issue for AAma because you just stall until you have the orbs you need, pop actives, kill, and repeat. The only times you can't do this are:

    1) You need to kill an enemy very quickly because it will one-shot you on its first turn. DQ + Valk + Venus is your friend here (even if you also had to kill something tough on the previous wave...I can get into specifics if necessary because this happens in places like C9/C10).

    2) Your burst wasn't quite enough to kill the enemy. They're gonna kill you on the next turn. There are four light orbs on the board. This is honestly the only case where I can see TPA really mattering, and in this case you would have been better off just bringing more burst.

    TPA is nice for faster farming, but I don't think it helps your survivability on an AAma team.
     
  10. Lady Chocobo

    Lady Chocobo Member

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  11. protoaddict

    protoaddict Active Member

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    Did anyone notice that the new Wukong is a healer: http://puzzledragonx.com/en/monster.asp?n=2660

    His numbers are WAY better than DQXQ, he has all the same awakenings as Dragon Princess DQ but with a bunch of extra skill ups and his active is just another version of theirs. I think he's gong to be a big deal for the team if i can ever get one, which is likely never. Im not sure he directly replaces DQXQ since his active is different enough, but I cannot imagine a situation where I do not want one of him on the list.

    Between him and Baal becoming a healer we are getting a lot of options.
     
  12. Dunamos

    Dunamos Just zis guy, you know?

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    Yup! Was glad to see this, because 3K and Heroes are my top two pantheon priorities, and I don't have Wukong or DQ yet. Now essentially I have two chances for filling that slot on my Healer team.
     
  13. MisterDrgn

    MisterDrgn You can't take the sky from me. Staff Member

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    Yeah, it came up. At the time I said that for people with the optimal Valk/DQ/DQ/Venus setup, this was a modest improvement to Valk/DQ/Wukong/Venus, since more variety in your actives is better (obviously it's much better for people who have Wukong but don't have the DQs). But you're right--that additional 1k hp over DQ is a big deal, since AAma teams live and die by their hp total.

    But a few things to bear in mind:

    1) There's a decent chance that Awoken Wukong will lose the healer subtype, given what they did with Pandora (but who knows, GungHo might be nice...maybe Awoken Wukong will even enhance healers specifically, which would be awesome).

    (EDIT: Of course people can choose not to upgrade to Awoken Wukong. Might be a good decision.)

    2) DQ is due for an Awoken evo one of these days.

    3) I know this is super situational, but DQ is better for handling Meimei in C10s, which is an issue for AAma teams. (Meimei gives you light/green/dark tri-color, then you pop DQ).

    Baal has great awoken skills, but a pretty crappy active. If his Awoken form keeps its healer subtype, he will be more appealing, although even there he will have an inferior version of Pollux's active (judging by Awoken Astaroth).
     
  14. Quendi

    Quendi Member

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    I get the feeling we wont see awoken heroes for at least 8 months aside from pandora. Then it just becomes a question of do you plan on leading with wukong and perhaps getting an extra row on thor v.s. having a solid sub for ama and thor.
     
  15. MisterDrgn

    MisterDrgn You can't take the sky from me. Staff Member

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    Given the way GungHo's been mixing it up, I don't think there's any way to predict when other awoken Hero evos will come. Certainly 6+ months is possible, but 2-3 months wouldn't be a huge surprise either.

    I agree that people can choose whether to upgrade to Awoken Wukong when he comes, and there will be a trade-off. But even if Awoken Wukong loses Healer type, he will have two big advantages (aside from possibly an extra row):

    1) Haste on his active. This will make the Awoken form better for Thor/Saria teams, for sure.

    2) An awesome LS (if the type he buffs is reasonable...and actually buffing Healer would be really nice).

    So if it comes down to choosing Healer Wukong because he's better for AAma or choosing Awoken Wukong because he's better for two other, superior teams, I'm probably gonna go with Awoken (as much as I love AAma, and I really do).

    EDIT: But yeah, I would _love_ to see Awoken Wukong get Physical/Healer, and if his LS buffs Healer, instead of buffing Physical, he could easily become my favorite lead. (I think buffing Physical makes more sense thematically, but Physical Light sucks.)
     
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  16. protoaddict

    protoaddict Active Member

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    So as with many players right now, I got a lot of Latent Tamas in my box from the Predra dungeon. I'm actually have a big issue right now trying to figure out what to do with them. My main team is awoken Ama and here are the points I am juggling right now. I'm thinking of writing a guide for it if I can figure it out.
    • I know Ama gets 5 RCV tamas. It's a no brainier obviously because her leader skill basically turns 5 RCV into huge autoheals.
    • I think any serious team needs a rainbow resist character to prevent 100% gravities from killing you, but who do you give it to? Venus, DQXQ, Valk? All viable characters but....
    • Because of the way AMA works, HP latents may actually be better on a lot of characters after my rainbow resist set, though I am not sure. If I am healing back to full every turn (amas and Venus autoheals) on a hypermaxed team and still have heals to spare, then am I wasting heals?
    • Even with the auto heals, will a HP latent ever give me enough HP to matter compared to the HP and RCV saved by resists, keeping in mind that only one rainbow resist will matter per attack but you count all 5 HP latents.
    • Assuming I don't need more health or resists, are attack Latents on Chibi Valk with her TPAs better than maybe trying to increase my HP and Autoheals more with latents? Is an attack Latent ever good?
     
  17. MisterDrgn

    MisterDrgn You can't take the sky from me. Staff Member

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    Honestly, most of the time the effect of latents is so tiny that it doesn't particularly matter. That said, I gave my hp latents to Wukong because when he becomes a healer, he actually gets more hp. With a very high (for a healer) base hp of 3.7k, he gets all of +280 hp, which might make a difference, maybe, in very rare circumstances.

    Unless a monster has a very high stat, the +stat latents *really* don't matter. So for well-rounded stuff like DQ, you're probably best off giving it resist or something, but there again the effect is very minor.

    +attack on TPA monsters is generally good. But chibi Valk's attack, while decent, isn't that high. 5 latents will give you +74 attack.
     
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  18. Orange Crush

    Orange Crush PAD's Nostradamus

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    Pandora was given an Awoken because she was voted to get an upgrade in JP much like D.Meta and Sakuya's Super Ult etc. They probably want give Heroes Awoken forms as their are not a 'god' pantheon (like Archangels) and because there are many things in the queue to get upgrades: Sengoku & Mechanical Star 1/2 UEVOs, Indian 2s, Indra/Vritria, Egypt 2s, 3Ks (prob Super Ults for them) etc.

    Anyway I have a max skill Venus, Valk and Wukong. Assuming I'm going to switch my A.Ama to rows. Who do I put in the last slot? I have a max skilled Rei, and Ganesha, Kali, Arcline, Fuu & Sandalphon all unskilled. Rei has similar damage output to Kali but converting 5 vertical to 6 horizontal orbs seems hard and Kali>Wukong>Valk>Venus seems like too many actives for a burst. Ganesha's shield occasionally has utility but the cool down is immense.
     
  19. MisterDrgn

    MisterDrgn You can't take the sky from me. Staff Member

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    Sandalphon for max damage, or when you need the damage resist. Most of the time, eh, I would bring Fuu for comboing with Valk. Or Rei if it's an easy dungeon and you're in a hurry. Another Wukong/DQ would be nice, but it doesn't matter a lot of the time.
     
  20. sunglassesmichael

    sunglassesmichael Ruka button is OP

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    She never won a vote, that I recall. I think she just got an ult eventually because L Meta had one.

    I believe the Blue Odin UVO was the same situation.
     

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