[Discussion] Why aren't we/you tired of our current "meta" ?

Discussion in 'P&D Discussion' started by YamaKyu, Jan 22, 2019.

  1. YamaKyu

    YamaKyu Make crosses meta again

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    (I posted the same post on reddit but I felt we might have interesting discussions here too !)

    Hey there ! This post might sound controversial but it is a genuine question. I'm not trying to troll or anything, I just really am confused/curious, since I play the game very differently from most educated players.
    My question is simple : Why do we (as community)/you (as educated players) get tired of a given meta, and why aren't we/you tired of the superiority of our current top tier units (if we take Bakadata's aggregated tier list, it's Ed, B&J and Dmeta atm) and meta (combo based atm) ?

    I'm typically thinking of how the heart-cross meta was quite hated at some point (or it's just that maybe heart-cross meta was hated by some very vocal people). So I'll mostly use that as a comparison example.
    Could we say that back then we/you were also tired of the double/triple TPA meta with Green Zhuge and non-awoken Liu Bei etc ? Or even the row meta even earlier back when the non-awoken non-ult Sonias were all the craze ? Heck, 2/4/2 has also been a thing for some time. Did we hit a "tired of it" point?
    I think we did get tired of the supremacy of Dark Athena (not sure we can call it a "meta", but she was everywhere, extremely capable and durable, and very accessible) at some point. And if we go back in time, well we also did get tired of the Resolve/Green Odin + autoheal meta.

    So yeah, I'm trying to understand what you think can cause "meta fatigue", and why I don't feel this "meta fatigue" has settled in our current meta when I think it should have by now. But we did get a very visible "meta fatigue" effect when heart-crosses were a thing.


    A few points about this question :
    • I distinguish we as community from you as educated players, because while I'm 100% into the community, I absolutely don't include myself in players influenced by the cards that are usually considered meta or optimal. I say "influenced", and not "following" to not upset anyone because I know there are various levels of "following the meta". You might not follow the meta and still keep an eye on tier lists, or read pad.protic.site for reviews or Mantastic blog, or whatever and clues about what cards could be interesting for you. This counts as "influenced" to me. This is not necessarily a bad thing, I ain't judging anyone for anything :>
    • "Meta" is obviously hard word to define. I'm not trying to create a universal definition. If you're not familiar with this word, or you think we understand this term differently, feel free to replace "meta" with "Usually most recommended way to do things or most desired stuff, with efficiency/consistency being one of your goals". It absolutely is not a definition of "meta", but I think it will allow us to discuss the matter. You could also think of "meta" as in simply "usually very relevant or desired".
    • Btw by "educated players" I mean players who know the rules of the game, who know how to build a basic team to tackle a dungeon which isn't the 3p dragon rush thingy, who can establish a basic strategy for a dungeon that poses even a single problem, and who can 6c a board consistently. I picked 6c as a threshold because for a player who doesn't know the reliable way to match combos (starting with 4 horizontal at bottom/top, then 6 vertical) and therefore has a more "random" way of matching, it is hard to consistently hit more than 6c (emphasis on consistency) because 5c is a breaking point : at 5c you've used half of the board to match, so most of the maneuvering space is used. Any additional combo becomes inherently challenging. This is non-issue for educated players.
    • By "Combo based meta" what I mean is that currently (and it's been like this since we've first seen double 7c cards basically) it is efficient/optimal to build around combo for damage and defense, and most recommended/desired leads can take full advantage of the 7c (or 10c with the advent of 7x6).
    • I absolutely am not referring to powercreep. This is an inevitable consequence of running a game with content added every other week. Of course powercreep induces changes in how the meta is perceived. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about "fatigue" of a given meta. When we/you want it to change, or see it gone.

    Now, with all of that said, I do have a couple ideas of why the heart-cross meta was so despised (our so loudly despised, at least). But I don't understand how it does not apply to our current meta.
    • Powercreep
      Heart-cross meta came more or less with the release of Myr, which was also a massive powercreep leap. A lead with x7 was just as strong (damage wise) back then as a lead with x16 or more today.
      → However this would be a weak point, since today we do have powercreep leaps as well. Part of why meta leads are meta is they are strong. Duh x)

    • Time
      Heart-cross meta did last a for while. I can't say for sure, but Myr, Kaede, Sumire (in a lesser extent) and friends were very relevant for probably 6-9 months. Maybe a year or more. Don't take my word on this though. I'm not sure.
      → That wouldn't be a fair point since we've been in a "combo" meta for so long now. Way more than a year. Probably close to two by now.

    • Efficiency
      Heart-cross was just straight up broken : back then all heart-cross leads had 50% shield (not true today, as some heart-crosses have 35% shield), which means that with the same helper you're in a better position (defense wise) than a x4 HP lead. Which made a lot of content trivial. And then there was the power. Kaede had so much damage output, Sumire was very capable and let's not talk about Myr I guess.
      → That would be a fair-ish point if one of the most popular current top tier lead wasn't Dmeta. And even without her, the Edwards and Yusukes are comparable (efficiency-wise) to the popular heart-cross leads of back then.

    • Spread
      Heart-crosses were everywhere thanks to Myr being farmable, so even if you didn't have a Kaede you were still part of it.
      → Fair point. However, again, Dmeta is arguably one of the best lead in the game rn, and is also one of the oldest card in the game so you can expect her to be in a large amount of player's boxes. Ofc not everyone has her. But a good amount of educated players are very likely to have her since a good amount of educated players are just players who've been here for a while ~

    • Legitimacy
      Matching a cross is legit a huge commitment since it takes way more effort to do and creates annoying "dead space" in which you can't match stuff, unless cascaded. It just is super far away from the base idea of matching sets of 3.
      → This would be a fair point. Like, for real. I play crosses on a daily basis and 1000% get why so much people are not willing to play that. I ain't asking anyone to do that x) (but if you're curious, feel free to give it a go :9)

    So from what I understand, our current combo based meta and the heart-cross meta are comparable in how they perform and how they allow us to tackle content. But to me the biggest difference is that playing purely combo-based is how the game was designed to be played from the beginning. It's way more legitimate and intuitive. So I think it all comes down to this... ?
    So uh, yeah. That was a way bigger post than I expected and I guess it's kinda controversial but I'm genuinely confused and curious about that. Let me say again that I'm not trying to complain here nor trolling. I just want to discuss this matter (I like this game → I like to talk about it), as I was one of the players who were sad to see people despise the heart-cross meta, and now I'm unhappy about the current meta but there's much less disapproval (or less loud disapproval) while I think we should've hit a "meta fatigue" point months ago.
    What do you think ? How do you see it ?
     
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  2. Noc

    Noc Active Member

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    For me, 7c is growing little stale. But, I can think of several reasons why the meta isn't shifting.
    1) Comboing is at the core of this game: Before there were awakenings or really any of the metas you describe, there were just cards and combos. Since this game doesn't actually have that many dragons (especially ones that actually happen to be dragons), a better name for this game would have been puzzles and combos (or combos and waifus). Whether you’re using rows, TPAs or crosses, an extra combo or two is always a desirable thing. So, at least to a degree, when you grow tired of combos, you’re partly just getting tired of P&D's core mechanics. Because we all play P&D, I'm guessing the combo thing as a whole appeals to players at a pretty deep level and the "7c meta" is just the most concentrated version of that.

    2) For most content, there are viable alternatives: Currently there are multiple leads that can largely keep up with the leads you mentioned. 3 favorites from my box include Ryune (a row lead), Madoo (a weird take on 5 orbs) that I usually run as a TPA team, and Raizer (stupid amounts of damage with low hp). I rarely favor 7c awakenings on Ryune or Madoo, and I tend to switch up Raizer’s playstyle (which is why I love him so much). For what it’s worth, I would love more top tier alternatives to combos, though I’m not much of a cross guy myself. Which brings me to the reason why I care about top tier leads...

    3) The end-game is hard (really, really hard): Before I retired, I could tweak ALB teams to beat most C10s and I could usually beat any dungeon within a few tries using most relatively solid leads. Between the decreasing amount of information available about dungeons and the skill curve getting a little out of control, I feel like I’ve simultaneously become better at the game and less of an end-game player. In fact, since returning this past summer, the longer I play the less I feel like an end-game player despite playing pretty regularly. I couldn't beat Quetzlcoatl's annihilation difficulty and I have yet to beat a C10. And I imagine other players are having similar difficulties, which leads them to favoring top tier leads that give them a fighting chance against the game’s increasingly esoteric and frequently borderline unfair mechanics to clear end-game content. So players are pressured into playing teams like the ones you mentioned. In turn gungho’s data, and our own first-hand impressions, confirm that most players (especially ones with their eyes on the end-game) favor the combo meta, which discourages a shift away from it.
     
  3. ambiguous57

    ambiguous57 Well-Known Member

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    Agree with pretty much all of this.

    Funny thing is, the 7c meta is actually pretty fun. The problem is that it’s unlikely to shift since the entire concept is built around the fundamental principle of the game: combos. That means the game has devolved into this bizarre arms race where anything remotely posing a problem for a combo team means it’s almost certainly unplayable for any other team type.

    I honestly don’t see a way out of this meta. They could buff other stuff like rows, TPA, etc, but it’ll take a lot to be able to compete with 7c.
     
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  4. Gr33nDr4g0n

    Gr33nDr4g0n Well-Known Member

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    Yeah 7c is just far too natural to go anywhere any time soon, if ever. Every other meta has been predicated on some forced matching style, playstyle or gimmick but with 7c you just match orbs. And not only that, you can match them however you want as long as you hit the magic number.

    Basically GH jumped the shark and there's no looking back.
     
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  5. Super Random Box

    Super Random Box REM Trolled.

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    I'm not tired of meta because I don't play meta only... (plus I never check those tier lists, I just play with whatever I have or feel like playing)

    I still play with Revo Anubis/Gintoki, Revo Tsukuyomi, Saline/Water Saline (forgot the name, has a Cloud resist), etc...

    To be honest, playing with same team is boring as hell... so I often change the team I use to play.
     
  6. ko300zx

    ko300zx Well-Known Member

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    The exact opposite is why heart cross needed to die. There was no commitment or skill requirement. If you could make a row and a cross in the absurd amount of time you had, you could win just about anything. Just fill the team with heart makers. The shield was way too strong for content available at the time. Combo shields weren't really a thing. I mean, what's the highest in A3, a 4c shield? Kaede and Sumire mixed it up a bit with their 5 oe and multiple green match requirements, but they were generally system based so you could spam and make the boards you needed every turn.

    It wasn't until Aizen that crosses became interesting. Switching the cross mechanic to damage. It turned slow, tanky, and boring, to a cross style that was exciting and that required crosses in addition to combos to heal and survive. Adding the ability to make multiple crosses also changed the way they were played. You could damage control in A3, and you could blow things up when needed. This is when learning cross boards actually became relevant if you wanted to do well. Aizen changed the game for me. It was the first lead I saw a video of and said, I HAVE to have that.

    The current meta doesn't get old for me because everything is so much more flexible. I can play Reeche/Reeche, or Reeche/Ilmina or Madoo/Ilmina or Ilmina/Ilmina for example. In the past, a lot of off-pairings weren't so easy to work with. Each combination changes things up a bit. Sure it's just combos in the end, but I can go through my box and put stuff to use that would otherwise be collecting dust. Now that I finally have Romia, I can put her on some of my AA teams and still do just fine even though she's probably not the best candidate. Stuff like that may not interest some people, but it works for me.

    Then there's also the fact, that we are back at a point where there are dozens and dozens of leads that aren't on tier lists can still clear end-game content. Sure, it's not as easy, but it's very much doable. Rows, crosses, heart crosses, there's something in every category that can clear AA. Hell, Shynee and Baddie can clear AA. If people don't like straight combos, there are options. If I get tired of plain old combos, Lajoa or Ryune might get some use. There's always something workable even if it's not tier-list worthy. Did the last OSC with Christmas Ilmina (despite the fact I still don't find heart cross all that exciting.) It was fun to mix it up and tricky trying to VDP, heart cross, and hit a combo shield on the same board. Turned a boring OSC into something entertaining.
     
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  7. YamaKyu

    YamaKyu Make crosses meta again

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    Thanks everyone, with your inputs and the gazillion reply I got on reddit it made everything way clearer to me. Also I was basically looking at this "issue" the wrong way, but I kinda get it now I think ~
    So you're saying it had to do with how heart-crosses were way too good in comparison with the challenges we had back then ? Would you think it still applies today ?


    I'll confess something, it tilts me a bit to see so much praise for Aizen, as Aizen is probably the number one relevant cross lead that relies the least on crosses (among relevant leads I mean, not counting stuff like Enoch or Verd which you would never ever consider running and that just have a cross LS for the sake of it), because of its flat x36, which (back then) allowed him to beat huge amounts of content with only very little use of crosses. At x2 per cross, he's ex-aequo with Nees for weakest cross power amoung relevant cross leads, but when you add context (powercreep has been there) Nees needs to rely a lot more on her crosses do the work because the HP pools are much bigger. Back then (again, context), he didn't nearly as much. Annihilation tier dungeons and challenges weren't such a thing.
    I mean, with so few a cross power and a hard limit at 2 crosses (because he's monocolor and 7x6 cross pairing didn't exist back then) you might as well just replace the cross part of its LS with something like "x2 at 2 dark combos, x4 at 3". I'm exagerating a bit here ofc, but my point is that he was good way more for the non cross part of its LS than for the cross part of it's LS.
    Though I'm saying all that but I've never got my hands on him unfortunately, so I might be plenty wrong. Feel free to tell me if you feel that is the case. I have most of all relevant cross leads but he's among the few ones I can't get my hands on OTL. This is just based on my observations of people who had him and my own experience with crosses.

    But yeah, it always makes me confused to see him being so praised, when what made him great actually was that he was just a lead with a free high x36 flat mult (that was very high for something that was just plain flat), on which you could increase your damage with a cross, or maybe 2. But you didn't want 2 crosses a lot of time, and even one could kill plenty stuff because back then flat x36 was really good. Also the reward for making 2 crosses was really not great (at only x2 per cross) so I have trouble seeing him as a good cross lead. A good lead, sure, but not so much a good cross lead.
    Of course my points is hard to assess because powercreep has been there and numbers don't have a lot of meaning without context, but you get the idea.
    Kenshin has been there before and he's an actually great cross lead, as he does actually work with crosses. A bit weaker than Planar but tankier. Probably just as good as her and Rushana overall.


    Truth is, there is, through utility. You can make multiple TPA and multiple rows just as desirable as multiple 7c through relevant utility. Heck, you can also add utility to attribute-crosses for teams that don't have a cross LS. I have some ideas, and I kinda want to make a post about it someday on the forums, but I don't know if it would interest people ? This is way too long to be included in there without being a straight up annoyance :9.
    But the idea is that basically 7c rewards you a lot for just playing the game : matching sets of 3. The other offensive awakenings reward you a bit less for doing more than just playing the game : matching a set of 4 or a row. So they can't really compete a lot.
    What can be done though is adding an interesting effect to the damage increase (rows will always loose to 7c, except for farming, and TPA asks for a higher commitment to compete). And not a one time thing like "hitting two targets" (which is a very super niche feature btw), but something that gets more and more rewarding the more rows/TPA you make, similarly to how matching more crosses is inherently desirable because it has this very special feature of not being limited in number of LS activation.

    Yeah, I think I'll make a post about that soon-ish.

    I agree with all of that. This is so relatable it hurts. Though I'm still attempting all C10 and clearing most of them, but every additional challenge to the game just makes me feel like they don't keep in mind "non match-3" playstyles while designing their dungeons (though I'm biased again since crosses is a little bit extreme when you think of non match-3 playstyles). And I hate this very thought ._.
     
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  8. ko300zx

    ko300zx Well-Known Member

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    Not true at all unless by huge amounts of content you mean making your way through all the normal dungeons. 36x was nothing. You could clear some trash floors in A3 not making crosses, but not all, and that's not really relevant either way. I mean, you could damage control sopdet with him. That's how LITTLE damage he could do not making crosses. End fights are what matter and you absolutely relied on crosses to deal damage to make him useful and to do damage comparable to other leads of the time. You maybe broke a million per sub without any unless you built for TPAs or made a ton of dark matches. One cross was roughly 2-4 million damage per sub on average when 2 was 15+ million on average although you could easily break 20+ million with an extra match or two. It was 36x, 144x (1 cross), or a massive 576x (2 crosses). I would never call that "so few a cross power." The difference between 36 and 576x is absurd. His crosses are what made him good. As a matter of fact, I would say no one has ever relied MORE on the cross mechanic to be good at what he did. 1 cross was perfect to damage control Hera Dragon. Two crosses could stay just under the other radars voids. 1 cross and combos could set you up perfectly to then kill Noah Dragon with 2 crosses when his shield went up. Everything that made him good was because of the damage directly tied to crosses.

    Annihilation tier dungeons were also very much a thing and he was able to take those on too when many other leads struggled. Here's a video of him doing Collo.

     
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  9. Gr33nDr4g0n

    Gr33nDr4g0n Well-Known Member

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    ko300zx already said most of what I would have so I'll just say that as someone who mained Aizen for ages(and even wrote an A3 guide for him on these very forums) I can safely say he was most definitely a true cross lead. His straight 36x was only relevant in what at the time was end game content for making him less orb hungry relative to other cross leads because he could sweep trash with 3 matches or a TPA if you threw one or two on his team.

    I can tell you I spent allot of time learning how to do good cross boards because of him and even went so far as to try to look up cross cascade setups to help deal with high health enemies that also had high combo shields. Sounds like a cross lead to me....
     
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  10. YamaKyu

    YamaKyu Make crosses meta again

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    Ok I see, nice then !

    Funny, my experience with crosses is very different from this. It might be just me but it's usually quite the opposite. It might come from the cross leads I play, but a general rule of thumb with all my cross leads (and I have a lot) is that if I can reach a boss, I'm very likely to being able to beat it either in first or second try. Ofc some are super nasty bosses which will try very hard to prevent me from getting my numbers (*cough*Cauchemar*cough*), but yeah usually getting there (and not dying to 70k pre-emptives ofc) is what causes me trouble. So yup x36 sounds like an invaluable asset yup. Or well, no, it is. Fujin has it, and it's awesome. But Fujin's x36 is not flat.

    You see, that's exactly what made me say all of that.

    Re-reading my reply to ko300zx made me realize I made unclear points and phrased some stuff poorly (why is communicating so hard), and both of you taught me interesting things I didn't know about this lead (like, being able to damage control HeraDra is legit an awesome feature) which I'm grateful for since it turns out I was quite a great bit in the wrong.
    But I still have mixed feelings about him, and I'll try to explain why better this time.

    (notice how I'm smartly using this opportunity to talk crosses, just according to keikaku)

    Most (if not all) 6x5 attribute-crosses (Allatu and Bride Rush are the only 7x6 cross leads so far and this doesn't apply to them) leads have a Leader Skill made of (at least) 2 parts.
    1. The part which requires you to match crosses, the thing I called "cross power".
      Among relevant cross leads (so not counting Enoch, Titania, Mowa, Wallace, Caladbolg, Diablos Hunter, etc... and low rarity collab cards that nobody want to lead with), the cross part of their LS scales from x2 to x4 per cross (x5 if you count Wallace but should we count him as relevant, I genuinely wonder). But the vast majority of attribute-cross leads have either x2.5, x3 or x3.5 per cross (which is respectively x6.25, x9 or 12.25 per cross when paired with the same helper (which you want with most leads)).
      → only Nees and Aizen have x2 per cross (x4 with same helper).
      → only Paimon and REvo Acala have x4 per cross (x16 with same helper).

    2. Some other stuff, be it defensive or offensive features, with other requirements.
      I can't be exhaustive here because we need to take in account not only ATK mults, but also Leader Skills with HP/RCV mults and shields. And I'm lazy. But if we only look at ATK (which we shouldn't, really), this part of their scales from x1.5 to x10. The vast majority of attribute-cross leads are between x2 and x4.
      → Only Chern has x10
      → Only Raijin as x7
      → Fujin, Aizen, Manticore and Grato have x6
      → Only Nemain has x5
      → Only Acala has x1.5
    It's this 2nd LS part that makes Aizen special and good and desirable. Though there's another card with similar features, and that is Caladbolg, but I didn't include him in relevant leads. Though I genuinely wonder if I should. Not too sure about that.

    Here's the thing. I still believe Aizen's cross power is low. x4 per cross is not a lot. And yeah I do have a pretty good idea of how it scales, Nees scales similarly, and I do think x4 per cross is low. 20M for two crosses sounds low to me, it's fine for bicolor cross leads (such as Planar or Kenshin), but for a mono-color cross lead, it's low. And it would have been a problem for him if he didn't have x36 non-cross part to make up for that. Nees suffers from not having exactly this. And Fujin works because she has exactly that.

    Aizen might be able to hit good damage with two crosses, but it still comes mostly from his passive part which is x36, and only x16 for the active cross part. Sure, that doesn't mean he can't kill stuff, because well he does. I mean, he was very popular and desired for good reasons. But these good reasons are what makes him unique : not only he has a non-cross x36 ATK LS, but it is flat. Free. You start a dungeon → boom, x36 (ofc you need the actual subs to go with him, but he's very easy to build around since you don't all blue subs, you mostly want dark). That's a huge feature.
    As I said, the vast majority of cross leads have the non-cross part of their LS between x2 and x4. Aizen has x6. And what makes him unique is that it's flat.
    Cherun has x10 if you leave 6 orbs or less on the board. Raijin has x7 for hitting full rainbow matching. Fujin has x6 for hitting 6c, Grato needs full rainbow matching, Manticore needs 5 orbs or less on the board after matching. Nemain needs 7c to get her x5.
    Aizen gets x6, so it's not the best but it's flat. That's what makes him different and that makes him desirable even today (because we have 7c and today more than ever it is beneficial to Aizen (talking from experience here)). It changes how you approach team building (you're much less in this constant need to fix non-5-orbs boards with active skills or stalling) and strategy. As you said, you can use TPA to kill stuff. I so wish all cross leads could do that, I really do.

    Also there's the flat (again) RCV bonus for stalling when you need.

    Fujin and Raijin work exactly because they have a high non-cross LS (respectively x6 and x7), implying they can do a lot of stuff with 0 cross, and beat most of the stuff at 1. But they still need you to do stuff to kill or to heal. And it applies to all cross leads. Cross leads with a flat passive ATK mult never exceed x3.
    Which makes Aizen unique and sets him appart.

    Aizen is different.
    → A x36 non-cross LS is fine, Fujin, Grato and Manticore have it as well, but for Aizen it's flat, while others are actively triggered.
    → A x3 RCV bonus is inherently quite rare among cross leads, not a lot of them have this. Cards such as Lmeta or the dark Kenshin guy have it flat, but they don't have x36 non-cross LS. Planar also has it, but it's actively triggered (6c).
    → His cross power is also comparable to Nees' but Nees suffers from it because her non-cross LS is only x16, while Aizen is x36.

    I probably have been way too harsh with my words, and I'm sorry for that. But I still think Aizen has a significantly different design than other cross leads, which explains its popularity (aside from the fact that Bleach is popular ofc x) ) while we have plenty of other cross leads which are sadly soooo much less desired and popular (even if their numbers are far higher nowadays).
    So yup. Mixed feelings.

    But thanks both of you for your input, I obviously misjudged him

    (also I did forget we had Arenas and Colosseum back then, I was mostly referring to Descends and challenges)
     
  11. ko300zx

    ko300zx Well-Known Member

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    I'll have to read the rest of your post later lol, but wanted to respond to this part real fast. You have to remember, this was a time when Fujin didn't exist, FUA didn't exist, there was no VDP or anything. You actually had to deal with each of the boss mechanics the hard way. It was literally impossible to kill any radar dragon in 1 try. At best, you could kill a couple in 2 if your damage was absolutely perfect. Hera required a cycle of shields and perfect damage about 5 turns in a row. Most other bosses required some combination of crosses/combos specifically to keep them in certain thresholds, while also staying under their respective voids. Noah as an example, you wanted to cross and make a few extra combos to hit as low as possible while staying under the 5 million void. Then after his 75% shield, you had to double cross to finish him off. Regardless of what the flat multiplier was, your success was directly tied to the damage dealt making crosses.
     
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  12. Gr33nDr4g0n

    Gr33nDr4g0n Well-Known Member

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    I see your point and don't disagree that he was fairly unique, not just for the 36x but also the passive rcv boost instead of a cross shield like almost every other(if not every other) cross lead had at the time. I mainly took issue with the idea that his trash sweeping prowess made him not a true cross lead because that wasn't my experience when using him.

    Dear god HeraD. That spawn was such a nightmare before you could void that nonsense shield. It's kind of a testament to how good Aizen really was that he could actually handle her without needing a void. Allot of current top tier leads can't even do that today.
    I mean after I got Ed I thought about running A3 to test him out but I didn't have a void at that time and just said "nah" because HeraD would be a guaranteed run killer. Not to mention dealing with Sopdet would be extremely difficult and RNG dependent, Vishnu might be impossible even with a delay and Parvati might very well keep you on her floor for the full 99 turns. None of them were a major issue for Aizen though other than HeraD because of how near perfect you had to be to finish her before your shield(s) ran out but even she was still beatable.

    They really need to make a new Aizen evo so he can be relevant again...
     
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  13. ko300zx

    ko300zx Well-Known Member

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    Shield stacking, having a team with like 20 dark resists so you could tank Hera and still have your 2 shields for Hera Dragon. Oh how times have changed lol. Yeah a lot of stuff couldn't do that today. Sopdet is what I believe the main reason for the 36x was. Like you said, it wasn't about his trash sweeping prowess. It was so you had 3 levels of damage control options, all of which were important at the time. They developed him so his damage was adjustable for all of the absorbs and voids at the time. "Cross power" can be 5x or 6x these days because damage control isn't a thing.

    They're going to announce a Bleach reboot during the stream on Wednesday and he's going to stand alone at the top once more. :D :D

    For nostalgia. The video that got me hooked.
     
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  14. Gr33nDr4g0n

    Gr33nDr4g0n Well-Known Member

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    Haha the DARK ages. ;)
    Personally I used Halloween Thoth & Sopdet because they had four proper dark resist awakenings which meant something like 15 less dark latents to farm and also freed up latent spots so I could bring enough fire resists to buy an extra turn on Heph and wood resists to survive Parvati's Himalayan w/e attack. Plus HP latents, almost forgot about those.
    Good times.

    Didn't know about the Bleach reboot but that's awesome! Been way too long since that collab saw some love.

    Almost certain I watched that back in the day too though I watched a bunch of Aizen A3 clears so it's hard to say.
    Since we're going down the nostalgia rabbit hole though I couldn't help but dig this up: https://puzzleanddragonsforum.com/threads/arena-3-solo-clears-against-every-radar-aizen.99897/
    Easily the high point of all my years playing this game. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2019
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  15. ko300zx

    ko300zx Well-Known Member

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    I was just being sarcastic/overly optimistic for the reboot. :oops: Been hoping that's what they announce on stream for way too long. Sadly I think it's done, but we can always keep wishing.
     
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  16. Gr33nDr4g0n

    Gr33nDr4g0n Well-Known Member

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    Ah, well I wouldn't be surprised if it does happen eventually. Knowing anime it's only a matter of time before they reboot Bleach, make a spinoff or make another movie for it given its past popularity at which point it would make sense for them to push the cross promotion again.
     
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  17. Orange Crush

    Orange Crush PAD's Nostradamus

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    I’m not going to read this whole thread, so I apologize if what I say was already covered or it went in a different direction.

    But maybe take a step back and consider 7c isn’t the “meta” per se. it’s just a target goal for combining to vastly increase your damage.

    Take Valk Ciel who comes with a tonne of Killers and/or some 7c. She also activates fully off of 4 combos, you could theoretically build around Killers or Rows etc.

    Or how about Mega Sylvia/Ryune, I started a thread about rethinking her LS as make a row or two and then hit 7c. People were posting fantastic numbers and clears using subs that combine Rows and 7c.

    Or Dmeta/Yog, aren’t they HP dependent leads? A meta that fell out of style until they found out how to make it work?

    Or Sherias Roots? Technically a Rainbow lead, no? But how do you hit all the colors? Just make a tonne of combos, let’s say 7-8 matches as a good goal to hit 5 different colors. Actively trying to hit 5 unique color matches is way harder than just trying to combo a whole board.

    Realistically, as far as I’m concerned is FUA killed Rows, OEs are just getting phased out. And all of the 5+OE leads are dropping the OE requirement but not dropping the match requirement to 4 (a TPA) is just kind of killing TPAs.

    So to sum it all up, killing OEs, Rows, TPAs and the never rans L-ATK isn’t making a 7c meta. It’s just that high combo count is more effective at producing damage than any of the other damage Awakenings, but not necessarily mutually exclusive.

    The real meta is survivability and utility; HP multipliers and/or shields while being able to hit ~40m on a sub, along with FUA, VDP, and Damage Absorb. The methods of actually getting there are varying a lot more than normal.
     
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  18. Tacho

    Tacho Dumpcrafter

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    I like to match colorful orbs into fun shapes. I also like big numbers.
     
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  19. ambiguous57

    ambiguous57 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I’m still waiting for the day.

    I was actually thinking about that just this morning. I was wondering if they would even give Aizen/Rukia worthwhile buffs since they’ve been out for so long and surely they want to just push new stuff.

    Then again, it’s been so long that the percentage of people who have those cards has to be pretty small.
     
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  20. ko300zx

    ko300zx Well-Known Member

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    Well they would need overhauls to even be considered useful today. New evos, awakenings, etc. But yeah, that's generally how it works. Update/buff a few existing things, make the new stuff broken, take everyone's cash, repeat.
     

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