I Actually Miss Powercreep, WTF?

Discussion in 'P&D Discussion' started by Knomraski, Feb 12, 2018.

  1. Knomraski

    Knomraski Bowl of Herp

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    Diablos has been the game’s apex predator and has dominated the tier lists for basically a year now. New subs, particularly those with double/triple 7Cs and double/triple killer awakenings, have kept powercreep chugging along, but there hasn’t been a significant increase in leader powercreep for quite a while.

    Cards like Yog, Kami, Enra, Ideal(s) and Tardis have kept things interesting and added a little variety to the gameplay, but I actually kinda miss good, old-fashioned powercreep.

    I miss meaningful new content even more, but that’s a subject for another thread (or this one, whatever).
     
  2. Fridgeboy

    Fridgeboy Active Member

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    I must have a terrible enra team because I get my ass kicked so often in 3p mythic plus that I don't take her anymore.

    Is tardis that strong?
     
  3. xer 21

    xer 21 Mathematically the Worst Player on the Forums

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    I wouldnt take either into 3p but for regular solo/coop both Enra and Tardis are very interesting. Tardis has a lot of creative things you can do with him as a lead. he's a free 10x lead, every turn.
     
  4. FoxtrotFool

    FoxtrotFool Well-Known Member

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    Tardis is 10x with a huge HP tank, but the team build is limited to green, and preferred to be green/blue (or blue/green)
     
  5. HappyNoms

    HappyNoms Ogliarchial collectivist

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    Tardis has lousy damage output for 3p.

    Try Enra as a sub on a high damage lead team.
    It's as effective as leading Enra without any of the conditional hp problems.
     
  6. HappyNoms

    HappyNoms Ogliarchial collectivist

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    They need a reverse combo absorb. Absorbs damage if you make more than 6 combos. And yet the opponent still has halfway decent hp that you won't be chipping to victory with x1 to x6.

    That'd give most of the 6x7 leads conniptions, while not strictly speaking being impossible to jam in with multiple gravity or some painful forcing nonsense.

    Powercreep moved from leads to sub checks the last half a year+, Fujin, pixels, FUA, box, triple killers, etc. I guess it will get back to leads eventually, but theyve painted themselves in enough of a damage range design constraints corner without adding another zero for billions of powercreeped damage.

    I'd like to see them go along a new axis, like leads that boost your subs to new heights to make composition choices matter more, or require multilevel cascade to trigger leader ability, or care about move path count. Open up some new novel playstyle territory, horizontally in the design space, rather than just add a zero style powercreep to the sky.
     
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  7. xer 21

    xer 21 Mathematically the Worst Player on the Forums

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    indeed. It's kinda more obnoxious, because with lead based power creep, they couldnt get too wild as the leader skills really only manipulate 4 variables: attack, health and RCV as well as attacking orbs.

    the sub checks really hit specific subs and too many of them are 6 star GFEs or high collab rolls. you need a very diversified box to reliably attack all of the mechanics.
     
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  8. HappyNoms

    HappyNoms Ogliarchial collectivist

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    In theory this is good, because it can put the puzzle into puzzle and dragons.

    In practice, it is better when you have the puzzle pieces, and are trying to work out how to open some japenses wooden puzzle box, or solve a chess position forced mate, or whatever. As opposed to having a puzzle and some of the puzzle pieces are just missing.

    It's the difference between feels good design that is actually clever, and feels bad design that is just blatent pay-to-win dressed up with a thin puzzle veneer.

    Not having FUA but working around it with gravity, or not having either but using a Raphael immunity, or a counterattack creatively is fine. Having the pieces doesn't mean necessarily having the most convenient of all solve paths and pieces.

    But when it's HeraDra says have Fujun or go autoloss screw yourself after playing 15-20 minutes, or some C10 says deal 300m F1 first turn after a 5 turn SDR preemptive, that's more the pay-to-win missing puzzle pieces feels bad.

    You would think this is elementary basic design that companies would grasp, but they manage to do a surprising amount of chaotic making shit up and randomly hoping something is good, than actually using good design principles and guidelines, whether it's new leader skills or PEM lineups or descend design. Or at least it seems so.

    Is PaD actually well designed, or is it just there were 10 companies making games, all chaotically, and PaD was the randomly good one that got lucky, and has been fumbling along ever since more or less quasi-randomly introducing cards and mechanics on to what foundationally was a very good, but also lucky, base design of matching orbs and using actives.

    Idk. Makes you wonder sometimes. Its hard to comprehend how anyone actually straight up genius enough to design the base foundation by skill rather than luck, would then go so clumbsy random in various updates, making me think that original design was simply as much lucky as skillfully intentional.

    It's not productive to throw shade though.
    Game is still fun. I just have to not look too closely at the design.
    Helps that I modestly small whaled a bit years back however.
    And that I just can't be cared to bother if a descend is too misdesigned and skip it.

    There's a lot of latent opportunity waiting in the design space.
    I hope they find it, but even if they don't the foundation will be remembered and incorporated into successors and other games and so forth, as the arc of gaming is long but gradually bends towards good design.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
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  9. Orange Crush

    Orange Crush PAD's Nostradamus

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    I didn’t read the walk of text but basically with no power creep I’m fed losing interest. I’d also like to see more viable options of certain lead types making it to other colors. For example Blue has some amazing color match leads but other colors have so-so options. I have a lot of cards that would be great on teams that don’t have a viable leader for them.
     
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  10. Knomraski

    Knomraski Bowl of Herp

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    This^

    I’d love to run a solo player top tier blue team, but no such thing exists. Same with green. If you want top-tier, you better play light or dark (or maaaaaaybe red, if you’re feeling generous).
    That sounds challenging but incredibly tedious, frustrating and unfun- 3 qualities I do not enjoy in a “game.”
     
  11. Iluvatar

    Iluvatar Semi-IAP..damn you GH

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    Diablos and Rushana aren’t top tier?
     
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  12. HappyNoms

    HappyNoms Ogliarchial collectivist

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    I mean, like anything, it depends how you do it.
    It's kind of luzly entertaining if they put on a +70% skyfalls for a turn, bicolor the board, and make you furiously not match most of it to avoid the pandemonium. As a one-time, Lakshmi type of match-my-jammers special test, that kind of thing is somewhere between droll and actively delightful. As a straight up trollers gotta troll hating on you, not so much.

    Though I do think they need something to trip up 6x7 at least a little, because it's silly warping the design space in the sense of making a lot of cards just actively bad for no other reason than they don't play well as 6x7 splits, or have bad actives for 6x7 boards.
     
  13. BurningMan

    BurningMan Dropping the green Bomb

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    I feel there are hardly any mono color teams anymore. Most are straight up combo leads that just run whatever has the most 7c in your box.
    On the tier lists there is yog, ameno, lheradra, nergigante, ny yomi and the two kamis (both are more often played with upside down colors). Light feels like the strongest color right now mostly because it has the biggest pool of double 7c subs and a lot of FUA options compared to the rest.
     
  14. tanpopo

    tanpopo adventure!

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    Yeah I'm kinda sick of 6x7 leads as well, it just offers too many advantages in terms of dealing with board/orb hazards on top of the synergy with most lead styles. I guess they can promote more of the "leave 3 or fewer orbs on the board" leaders like that new MP guy. I can't think of many other LS that are disadvantaged by the larger board.

    Or maybe they give us a 6x7 badge and we just accept that's the new standard board size.
     
  15. RajaNagaSoz

    RajaNagaSoz Maximum Casual

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    This would have been real nice if it had happened BEFORE i went on my crazy long haitus from the game, because one of the complaints i had at the time was leader-creep going haywire, and no way to keep up.

    Kindof strange to come back to a game some year or more later and find people wishing they had what was complained about when you left it, and now you get disappointed you missed out on a year of time you could have gotten a lead to end all leads, since your box is full of tons of shit to make great subs out of.

    Really wish i had gotten a Diablos, my Skulds and Yomis would love to be on the high end of the stick, rather than the "oh, i never finished levelling my revo Anubis at SL1 and low scattered plusses" poor end.
     
  16. xer 21

    xer 21 Mathematically the Worst Player on the Forums

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    so many dungeons rely on combo shields and/or skyfall debuffs and/or high defense spawns and/or spinners, along with the proliferation of 7c subs. all of them explicitly favor 7x6 boards. its tough to find a way to prefer 7x6 outside of niche leaders with that ONE leader skill where you leave x or less orbs, and im not sure how to fix it.
     
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  17. BonerChamp69

    BonerChamp69 I'm huge

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    Honestly I wish they brought rows back and made them worth using. They are harder to play on 7x6 so if they get just the right amount of power creep behind a row lead that could help. Or just make a LS that fixes the board size but is worth it. I'm not sure what would make it worth it but I hope they think of something.
     
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  18. Knomraski

    Knomraski Bowl of Herp

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    Yes and no, but mostly no.

    Diablos is the highest rated lead in the game, and he is green. But very few players actually use him on a green-heavy team. It was slightly en vogue 100 years ago when Kush was still top-tier, but honestly even then it was rare to see a green-heavy Diablos team. Now they are about as prevalent as light-based Gadius teams. So strictly speaking, yes, the top rated card is green, but it’s almost never used on a green team. Diablos would still be top Tier if he literally didn’t even have an attribut at all. All he really needs to do is show up, give you a modest 8.5x multiplier and change the board to 7x6 and his work is done. Doesn’t matter what color he is. He could be green, red, blue, or fucking Tahitian Vanilla Banana Mango Swirl. He is, by far, the most color agnostic card in the game.

    Would you consider Aizen a “blue” lead? Or Ameno? I definitely wouldn’t. Aizen’s clearly a dark lead that happens to have a blue main attribute. Ameno’s really a light leader.

    Rushana doesn’t appear anywhere on the JP aggregate tier list. She’s completely absent, meaning she’s at least 5th Tier (or worse). Of the 4 JP ranking sites, she only appears on a single list. One time. Out of four.

    Kush is another green lead and she is 3rd/4th tier ranked card and she’s about as fresh as the powdered milk coming out of Martha Washington’s entombed breasts. Admittedly, I’m not an expert on Kush these days, but I think her best subs are light-based, like Yuna and LIdeal.

    Ragnarok, a 4th Tier card is the only ranked green card I’d consider an actual “green” lead. He appears on 2 of the 4 tier lists and is ranked low enough on each of them he doesn’t appear on the aggregate list at all. But I can’t deny that he is definitely a “true” green lead.

    I don’t want to come off as a prick who wants to split hairs. When I say “I’d like to play a top-tier (solo) blue or green team” I’d like the leader and subs to be predominantly blue or predominantly green. I don’t want to play an all dark team that happens to have a green leader.

    It’s possible that with Green Sonia’s new evo she could actually become a green leader of a team that is actually green, but I kind of doubt it. GSonia/Gsonia/GCotton/GNey/GNey/Diablos sounds pretty good. It’s tanky and has utility but the multiplier is painfully low. Same goes for Blue Sonia (with Amatsu subbed in) possibly becoming a decent blue lead. Honestly though, I doubt they’ll ever get above 3rd Tier. I guess we’ll see.
     
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  19. xer 21

    xer 21 Mathematically the Worst Player on the Forums

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    Kush is commonly a rainbow lead, and that was just a disgusting analogy lol.
     
  20. Iluvatar

    Iluvatar Semi-IAP..damn you GH

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    Just because Diablos is used for many other leads doesn’t spot anyone from playing him with green heavy teams. He’s inclusive to green not exclusive.
     

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