My first time using Myr was an absolute, merciless nightMyr

Discussion in 'Rants and Accomplishments' started by Empyrean Nikkou, Aug 21, 2016.

  1. Empyrean Nikkou

    Empyrean Nikkou In REM hibernation.

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    I didn't feel like using my usual Amaterasu setup to take care of Sandalphon, 'cause it's always been a boring experience (I prefer the pace to be progressive rather than halting), so I figured I could use Myr, even though she hasn't seen a skillup and neither had those belonging to the friends available to me at the time. I've been practicing making crosses with other teams, so her actual mechanic wasn't the problem... Well, not directly.

    What happened was that Murphy paid me a metaphorical visit, raped my metaphysical wife, shot my metaphorical dog, didn't clean my metaphorical dishes after raiding every source of food I had, then burned down my metaphorical house and successfully convinced the police that I did it simply by being alive enough to consume oxygen -- just like the flames did.

    To be more specific: everything that could have gone wrong, to prevent me from clearing a floor, not only happened, but happened so many times that it went far beyond the point that any humor that could be had from disbelief was coldly defenestrated and impaled up the ass by the devil's cock, who just happened to be in the neighborhood. The amount of turns where I had zero hearts on the board was staggering, as was the amount of times where skyfall managed to find its way to the hearts I had been storing, taking away the five I needed; which was to say nothing of how often I simply didn't have five hearts, or how often I didn't have a lot of light orbs either. Of about the twenty or so turns that I had in the dungeon, there was literally only two or three times that I had at least five hearts on the board naturally, not from using skills. And speaking of the skills, which I had become completely dependent on to make any progress: I was shafted in every case where a full board change was involved (Apocalypse, Gadius and Saria), and never in the same way. With Gadius, it was just three light orbs; with Apocalypse, it was a blob of hearts that I couldn't work with; with Saria, she'd only given me four hearts.

    When all was said and done, I couldn't even kill Raphael within the allotted time.

    I knew that Myr having her attack requirement separate from an attack attribute, in conjunction with it being tied to her longevity (defense and healing), was a liability, but this was utterly ridiculous. How anyone can look at a leader skill of this nature and think, "This is reliable," which includes some of the vaunted subs being recommended for it, are disconnected from reality. I knew that I was at the mercy of luck going in, and that relying on active skills at least a bit was likely to be expected, but -- realistically -- dungeons aren't going to be forgiving simply because any amount of skill you have is trumped by luck. Considering how you'd probably need above average luck to perceive this kind of leader skill as being reliable, so you're not sapped of your active skills out of necessity, it seems like the only solution is co-op.

    Which, of course, I don't have much luck with. So, I can pretty much forget about using Myr. I suppose the only consolation was that I never got around to farming her dungeon for skill-ups. ;/
     
  2. pYrnna

    pYrnna Bikinitron's waifu

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    rip that's me when I play sumire. I'm either completely deprived of hearts of blues at any given moment without actives.
     
  3. Trap

    Trap Well-Known Member

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    It is reliable. Just like any other new matching style, it takes time to get used to. The first time you picked up a row team, could you make rows reliably? Probably not. Myr is great - 49x that applies to all colors, a constant Indra shield, and the ability to use rows or TPAs, based on your sub pool. She's actually amazing, especially for a farmable.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2016
  4. sl946

    sl946 Well-Known Member

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    First, sorry for the frustration. Second, I hate to be "that guy," but if you are running an orb-hungry lead like Myr and haven't max skilled the entire team, you should probably expect to have a bad time. It's hard enough to have enough hearts on the board even if all subs are skilled up. If your Myr is unskilled, you're almost guaranteed to get heart trolled at some point.
     
  5. swintergreen

    swintergreen Well-Known Member

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    I think sl946 said it best. Honestly, it was a real struggle to get used to making crosses and then making matches all around the crosses, and not messing the crosses up with those matches, and knowing when to use a skill and when to take a hit.

    But after a lot of struggle and public humiliation, I think I've found a method that works for me. Please don't give up on Myr yet, especially if you have such a good team for her! I use Myr with water subs and she has still helped me clear Arena and farm things like Zaerog and Scarlet. She's really stinkin' strong, just harder to use, but the reward is great!

    Once you get a sense for how much orb movement time you have with her, you'll be able to make more matches with your cross which will help you get less orb trolled. ;A;
     
  6. MisterDrgn

    MisterDrgn You can't take the sky from me. Staff Member

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    A lot of this will be seconding what others have said, but...

    1) If you have a difficult time the first time you ever use a particular leader (especially one so different from others you have used before), there is a high probability that your inexperience is playing a role. You really should give the leader more of a chance.

    2) Running with dual unskilled leaders is making your life harder. Obviously the team is substantially better at making hearts when those actives are available every 7 turns.

    3) Saria + Apoc + LGadius is not a strong lineup. Random board changers should ideally be paired with actives that improve their random boards. This is especially true of LGadius (run him with DQ/LAkechi, or don't run him at all, imho). That said, the odds of getting fewer than 5 hearts with Saria are absurdly small, so much that I almost don't believe you. But if it happened, that's where a skilled-up Myr could have saved you.

    Myr is not a particularly luck-dependent lead. She is consistent and reliable in far more difficult dungeons, once you have a decent team and are familiar with the playstyle.
     
  7. LordAx

    LordAx Thunder God

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    your light box is one of the best ive seen on PF, im surprised you haven't had an arena crushing team by now
     
  8. Dysdayn

    Dysdayn C-c-combo (Non)Maker

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    For me with Sumire, it was all about skill-ups and finding the right team. I was 100% in your camp at first - feeling like the heart cross and the (in my case) 5o1e was borderline impossible - maybe getting it once in 5-8 boards. Once I figured out the right team for me though (mainly a ton of TEs and the right balance of heartmakers) and got some practice with how to move different heart blobs to get crosses, I started really loving the playstyle. I know you said the cross itself wasn't the problem, so maybe team balance needs a look? Of course, if you really just don't want to give heart cross another chance, there's absolutely no shame in that. It's a game. Do the things that are fun.
     
  9. Empyrean Nikkou

    Empyrean Nikkou In REM hibernation.

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    I can get used to the luck style, which I can't harness? o_O (While my skill with making crosses certainly isn't the best, that was never the problem, except that one time when I'd gotten a blob of hearts.)

    I don't consider Myr to be particularly orb-hungry. It's not like those four-plus color combo leads, which need at least twelve orbs of four types for a simple activation, never mind needing more of a certain color and/or combos for the desired damage output.

    That aside, the issue here wasn't with skill levels. Even had my active skills been available sooner, three of the four skills can — and did — fail. (Well, an expert could have probably worked with a blob of hearts, but it was asking a lot from someone of average skill.) That's just a worse case scenario, true, but when a team's reliability is strongly influenced by how much you are graced by luck, in respect to its leader skill, I don't think it's all that reliable. Any team can get trolled, and what happened to me here certainly isn't going to be the norm, but the bar is set kind of low for the kind of trolling that would necessitate using an active skill, so I'd call her active skill-hungry, at least.

    While I will agree that having higher skill levels is helpful in general, it would have only delayed the inevitable in this situation. The incredible amount of bad luck was simply too strong.

    I honestly don't have much of a problem making crosses. (I've been practicing with other teams, either making crosses with non-hearts (with Skuld and Yomi Dragon) and making whatever other combos I could, or including a cross of hearts on any team, if given the opportunity.) The real issue here was bad luck. That's not to say that I'm a player of great skill, or that I didn't know of the potential problems going in, but I'd been blase about the odds of being trolled until now.

    I'll probably give Myr another chance, but it's just been such an F'ing downer getting an A. Liu Bei/Zeus-Dios farming team ready just for her skill ups (yeah, I really had no other plans for it), but so late I probably won't find anyone to co-op with even despite my typical bad luck, and other things have required my attention in addition to not having any magic stones for farming. And then there are other cards that need skilling up, but the skill rotation has been unreasonable, the shynpiis meager, or — in the case of Apocalypse — the skillup materials inaccessible (not that I care for a fifty percent chance of getting a drop I can't use, but still).

    For convenience's sake: I answered this somewhere above.

    I would have agreed with you about the random board changers even before this. I'm almost sure I said as much about it somewhere already. I've just gotten into this thing about economy, where I use one active skill to get by and be done with it, rather than using up too much of my resources on my way to a boss; particularly if the dungeon and/or luck isn't going to coddle you. There's luck involved with these active skills, of course, but I figured (based on nothing concrete, really) that the chances of getting trolled by them is less than the chances of the board not giving me five hearts in addition to four to six light orbs. Or, if the former without the latter, to survive one more turn and then have at least five more hearts to replace them for the next turn.

    I almost couldn't believe what I'd gotten from Saria either, and that's despite everything else. With how often I've used the Norns, blobs of any type are fairly common, but it's not that uncommon for there to be a meager amount of the type you attack with, either. Skuld, most recently (due to using her more often), has given me seven or less water orbs often enough.

    Well, teams are only as good as the player is, and I'm simply not that — good, that is. I'm not confident, either. I can't even begin to imagine myself putting together a team that I could conquer the arena with.
     
  10. MisterDrgn

    MisterDrgn You can't take the sky from me. Staff Member

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    You ran Myr once. Lots of us have run her far more times, so when we tell you she isn't luck dependent, we know what we're talking about.

    Your subs were luck dependent and generally pretty bad. Try something like Wukong/LAkechi/DQ/Saria, and you should see a sharp uptick in performance.

    I don't think you answered it really. Any team will be weaker if you run without skilled-up leads. If you run Myr without those skill-ups and are surprised to find yourself short on hearts, there's a straightforward explanation.

    If you want to get by using one active, then bring actives that work well on their own. Again, something like Wukong/LAkechi/DQ/Saria would be far more effective. First three subs are entirely predictable. Saria works decently well on her own and really well with LAkechi.

    The heart cross playstyle is about more than just making crosses. It's about knowing when to match hearts and when to horde hearts, how to horde hearts so you minimize the chance of accidentally matching them, how to carve out a heart cross when you've got too many hearts on board, etc.

    That said, I agree with your last sentence in the above quote, except I would rephrase it as the real issue was a bad team that was overly dependent on luck.
     
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  11. jakko

    jakko Combo noobster

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    you dont really need to make heart crosses all the time..the spike goes away if you don't sweep the floor.
     
  12. ViewtifulGene

    ViewtifulGene Mostly Retired. Still A Lazy Shit.

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    Moogle is Myr's secret weapon. He solves a lot of potential heart flow problems, meaning you can save your subs for bursting. By the same token, skilling Myr makes a world of difference. Again, it takes pressure off your orb changers, who are critical to killing assholes before they become a problem.

    Nothing worse than using your big board change not to kill, but only to delay death.
     
  13. Empyrean Nikkou

    Empyrean Nikkou In REM hibernation.

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    All leads are luck-dependent to some degree, because they all rely on the board. Active skills can only help with bad boards to a certain extent, barring few exceptions. Even had I the most optimal active skills, it wouldn't have solved this much bad luck unless I had a system: I would have just exhausted my active skills, and even assuming that each one helped me to clear a floor it only would have been good with a short dungeon.

    That's just a worst-case scenario, of course, and I'm not basing my judgement on that. My opinion of Myr's reliability hasn't changed since before I tried her: I'm just not giving it a pass anymore. What I'm talking about with dependence on luck, as far as reliability is concerned, can be put into perspective with a leader I use all the time.

    To me, A. Amaterasu's leader skill is much less luck dependent, and thus more reliable. She can heal without heart orbs, simply by matching any orb type. Her attack is variable, dependent on receiving damage, but it's never x1. She still relies on the board for at least one orb type, like many other leaders, but hoarding is easier (in terms of stalling survivability, so long as you're aware of the enemy's attack and her HP), and using active skills to replace orbs with light orbs is more forgivable.

    I'm not saying that Myr is horrible: she just needs a good amount of luck from the board and/or assistance with active skills to be efficient.

    The only exception I would make is with Akechi. I'm spoiled for more awoken skills. If he ever gets a similar buff as the original Akechi, he'll be on a team in a heartbeat. As it is, I'm probably going to put all three of their skills on someone else, since it's too nifty to not use at all.

    I already know this. I didn't pick Myr in her current state because I thought that she would have no issues, but that the dungeon would have been safe enough if several boards didn't go her way. No one can predict getting so few workable boards, or that every luck-dependent active skill would also fail. I didn't rant because Myr sucked, but because of how terrible my luck had been, which was frustrating because I'd need to be skilled up if I want to deal with half of that and I don't see that happening any time soon, even though I've wanted to use Myr now since the day she became available.

    The only real problem I have is that last one. I'm fairly decent at hoarding orbs, but it's ridiculous how often skyfall bunker busters to them, which happened a lot with this run. That, or what you need comes down as a match by itself. It's ridiculous how often this happens to me in general. If the game "wants" you to fail, at something or in general, you're probably gonna fail. Skill and planning only goes as well as luck allows it.
     
  14. momolatindisco

    momolatindisco Well-Known Member

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    You tried a new play style, with an unskilled leader, a less than ideal team and came up short of expectations. That's not bad luck. Chalk it up as a learning experience, tweak your subs (more orb changers, less board changers), skill up Myr, and try again.
     
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  15. Trap

    Trap Well-Known Member

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    You can't say that she requires "a good amount of luck". She takes 5 heart orbs - that's numerically the same as all the match 5 leads. Are you trying to tell me that Yomidra takes "a good amount of luck"? Is that why he's one of the most consistent Arena 1 leads? The more you practice, the more orbs you'll be able to clear per turn, and the more heart orbs you'll get each turn.

    So you weren't a victim of bad luck, nor does Myr require much luck. You were unaccustomed to using her, and she was unskilled. Those were the real factors in your failure.
     
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  16. kickat3000

    kickat3000 Active Member

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    What about when you look at the board and say "I don't have enough hearts to make a cross", and then you tab an active. Then now you say "I have too many hearts can't make a cross".
     
  17. Trap

    Trap Well-Known Member

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    Learn how to separate out a cross. Again, comparable to the 5 match leads.
     
  18. xer 21

    xer 21 Mathematically the Worst Player on the Forums

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    To be fair, Match 5 leads have a bit more margin for error. being able to stack five on one side, is easier than separating a cross. Granted, im used to match five and only played with a friend's cross lead once, but still.
     
  19. Trap

    Trap Well-Known Member

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    Crosses really aren't as hard as people make them out to be, not after a little practice. And especially with Myr's 4 extra seconds of movement time.
     
  20. MisterDrgn

    MisterDrgn You can't take the sky from me. Staff Member

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    I don't know what this means. Much of the bad luck you mentioned was specifically the result of your mediocre team lineup or your unskilled leaders. If you'd had a better team, you absolutely would have cleared Sandal Descended with ease, regardless of luck.

    I don't dispute that you had really bad luck. But for Myr to fail on Sandal Descended (or many more difficult dungeons), you need both:
    a) Really bad luck.
    b) A mediocre team that's overly reliant on luck.

    Bad luck on its own simply isn't sufficient to make Myr fail, at least in dungeons of this difficulty level.

    It certainly sounded like you were accusing Myr of being more luck dependent than other leaders in your original post. I and many others are disagreeing with this claim (unless "other leaders" is just AAma, who's maybe the least luck dependent lead in the game, but she has lots of other issues).

    If you want to use Myr now, pick better subs and find a skilled-up friend. I cleared lots of stuff with Myr before skilling her up myself.

    PS: Regarding LAkechi's limited awoken skills, a lot of players choose to inherit him onto another monster for this reason.
     

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