My reply to Mantastic's State of the Game

Discussion in 'Rants and Accomplishments' started by MisterDrgn, Jul 3, 2020.

  1. MisterDrgn

    MisterDrgn You can't take the sky from me. Staff Member

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    Gonna repost this here, in case anyone is interested. Original post: https://mantasticpad.com/2020/07/03/state-of-the-game-july-2020/

    Just thought I'd weigh in, as another long-time player (since late 2012). For me personally, the current state of PAD is pretty poor. But it's possible my situation is unique (or at least unusual). My interest in the game has waned considerably in the past 2-3 years. I don't know that the game did anything wrong--I just moved on, especially after getting a Switch (possibly my waning interest was also tied to the falling popularity of the PAD forum, but that can't really be blamed on the game either). I still play basically every day, but often just a few dungeons, sometimes only one. Combine this with the fact that I was never a high-level matcher, especially for my experience level (I always like to load up on TE, and I never chase crowns), and I've become essentially a casual player who happens to have a massive monster box, including many of the better leads and subs (but not everything--I barely ever IAP'd).

    As a casual player with a lot of good monsters, I find the new content almost entirely uninteresting. Either dungeons are way too easy, or they're too hard. The reasons they're too hard were covered in Mantastic's post. You have to bring the right combination of actives and passives to deal with the dungeon's gimmicks--this has been true for a couple years maybe, but it's only gotten worse over time. Furthermore, as a causal player who doesn't want to research dungeons, I never know what's going to get me killed. I agree that having monsters forecast their next move would be _really_ nice.

    I don't know about golden ages, but I had some of my most fun with this game when I could play around with different leads, especially new ones, in moderately difficult (at the time) dungeons like True Endless Corridors. Or, going back further, try to beat a set of dungeons with a single lead. Or, going back even further, try to beat the early Descends with as many different L/L leads as possible ('cuz why not?). In these cases, the player could essentially control the difficulty level by selecting a sufficiently bad lead for the dungeon (try beating a dungeon with pre-emptive attacks, running OG Zeus).

    Nowadays, when I have an interesting new lead and I want to play with it, there's nothing worthwhile to do. New dungeons will destroy it, particularly as I haven't taken the time to put all the necessary resists on the team members. Old dungeons are too easy. It just feels like it's difficult to have fun in the game.
     
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  2. CloudnineXXX

    CloudnineXXX Well-Known Member

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    My interest has been waning for a while as well, but the fact that I'm still playing after 2000+ days speaks to the quality of the game.
     
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  3. Murdurus

    Murdurus Rampage

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    I have to agree, I actually don't like the state of the game currently. Like for example, even though I pulled Aljae, one of the newest GFEs and paired it with Menoa who also is a recent GFE addition, I could NOT kill Vidar. Like Vidar isn't even a new dungeon albeit somewhat recent, but that combination was literally incapable of beating that dungeon; in the past, most teams were able to beat anything that was put out, sure, some definitely took more effort than others but it wasn't impossible to beat. Now, unless you have to absolute ideal team, you don't even need to think about trying the dungeon unless you have 99 stam to just throw away and mind you, now more than ever, the bosses are more volatile than ever, capable of flat out killing you in one turn from out of no where without warning.

    Lately, for the last several months or so, unless there are some exchanges I want to trade in for collab collectibles, I don't even spend my stamina and even if I decided to get them, I do it because I feel like I have to, not because I want to. I'll just get on, do the gift dungeon and collect my magic stones and log out. I've lost interest in the game, mostly because team building was one of the few aspects of the game I enjoyed about the game and now with actives and assists pretty much being locked in place, I have little to no flexibility in whom to bring on my team. Looking at the state of Monthly Quests, I don't think I've finished a C9 or C10 in many months now because of how ridiculous they've become and they only reflect what the state of the game is in now.

    Looking back at it, back when A1 came out, that was really an enjoyable time because there was a challenge placed in front of us and we were mostly able to bring any team we wanted to beat it. Obviously, some teams/leads were easier than others but it wasn't impossible. Now though, don't even bother if you don't bring the right actives and that's just sad. Even though I have the actives available to me, I don't even want to do it because I'm no longer doing it because it's fun, I'm doing it just because it's something I haven't beaten yet; that and the fact that since I no longer do anything with my stamina, I don't mind throwing away 99 stam per attempt.
     
  4. ambiguous57

    ambiguous57 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I mostly agree. There are just too many automatic run-ending mechanics with highly specialized solutions at this point in time. Few teams can cover the full spectrum of AA4, for example, without riding heavily on RNG. I have numerous high-end, fully competent teams, but there’s no point in attempting it with any team other than Yomi/Norza unless I just want to waste my time and stamina.

    I get it, not every team should work for every dungeon. And I’m fine with that. I just wish so many of the mechanics didn’t center around “Do you have the correct active/awakening/latent at this exact moment?” as opposed to “Are you skilled enough to pass this?”. There aren’t enough moments like Lakshmi and Eir, and too many “Pass our check to see if you can VDP, FUA and hit 8 combos or die next turn” moments when there’s a 99% chance you will never pull that off without a very specific form of active, awakening, leader skill, or all three.
     
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  5. Tek7

    Tek7 Well-Known Member

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    While I agree with the general sentiment behind the post, Vidar could be considered a fringe case in that Vidar has 12.5 BILLION effective HP (25 billion against a team full of monsters with devil typing). I failed Vidar's dungeon with a pretty solid Aten team then switched to a Barbara & Julie team built specifically for Vidar's dungeon (complete with a level 110 base Suou with 2 attacker killers and 1 healer killer) after reading a PAD reddit post about someone using B&J to clear the dungeon.

    The results were staggering.

    [​IMG]

    That's after the first B&J active. The second one is ready to go!

    I would argue that Menoa x Aljae is meta (though unforgiving; miss an L-match and you're probably toast). B&J is most certainly not meta. But a strong B&J team can farm Vidar fairly consistently.

    Menoa x Aljae can be extremely strong in the right dungeon, but Vidar is not that dungeon.

    TL;DR: Don't gauge the strength of a team on one or a small handful of dungeons. There's still a lot of fun to be had using niche teams for niche purposes.

    (And also, B&J is fantastic.)

    EDIT: But I do agree with Mantastic and other PAD players who complain (and rightfully so) that PAD endgame dungeons are obnoxious "gear checks" to see how much utility you can cram in to one team. There's certainly still a skill element involved, but there are some team elements you just can't skip.
     
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  6. MisterDrgn

    MisterDrgn You can't take the sky from me. Staff Member

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    I did just make a new team that's helped reignite my excitement, at least a little: mono-light pixel. Basically, I traded for a dupe Bride Escha ('cuz what am I gonna do, find pixel bride escha friends?) and threw it together. It was kind of meant as a joke, to surprise people in multiplayer, but it turned out pretty strong, so that's been fun.

    Also it's really easy to play (very strong defensive stats, match 5+ light orbs to get 256x and +4 combos). Even being bored with the game, I find that making a team that requires very little effort is quite satisfying. I guess I've always been that way about video games (e.g., final fantasy 7)--investing a lot of time and effort to make a team that basically plays itself feels really good. (Plus, it's nice that I can play one-handed while cradling a baby.)

    @Tek7 Oh cool. Vidar's been a pain for me too, but I will try that out. Always nice to have a reason to break out an older team like B&J. That's more the type of thing that makes PAD fun.

    I definitely agree here, but it's possible PAD could go in a different direction, rather than shoving every annoying mechanic possible into new dungeons. To be fair, catering to old players who are mostly tired of the game probably isn't the best decision for their business model.
     
  7. Tek7

    Tek7 Well-Known Member

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    Oh? A pixel Bride Escha team? Would you mind sharing the team build?

    I have Bride Escha on both my NA accounts and I was considering switching her to the pixel evo.

    There's no substitute for baby cuddles. <3 I have fond memories of playing DS games while sitting with my older child when she was tiny. Enjoy these moments, demanding though they may be! :)

    Agreed.

    This is not the first time I've forgotten how strong a lead B&J is. I know the meta has shifted to asymmetrical pairings, auto FUA, and a focus on VDP, but a 4/256/4 symmetrical lead pairing with a bunch of killer awakenings is still really strong in the right situation.
     
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  8. MisterDrgn

    MisterDrgn You can't take the sky from me. Staff Member

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    There aren't a lot of options. I've been running:
    * LZL -- The only team member without VDP, but possibly my mvp. Crazy utility on this guy. He has a ribbon resist and FUA, and his active gives you full activation + the column of hearts on a 6-turn CD. Also, mine has 2655 RCV (I went all out), which is nearly half the team's. It's great to finally have a use for this guy after waiting ~6 years.
    * Saria -- Poison immunity and my only full board changer. Doesn't unlock the board, which would obviously be a problem in many more serious dungeons (could inherit a better active over her).
    * Yuna + Cloud -- They're generally pretty good? Yuna has double skill boost + double TE, and Cloud has a low CD. Also, Cloud destroys Devils (see below).

    It isn't the strongest team, but it hits really hard for very little effort, so it's nice for casual play (which is mostly what I do, as I said above), especially in co-op where you can't count on a 7x6 lead. I've been running a lot of 3P Cosmic Trinity (because it's the only 3P dungeon where I can find partners), and it romps through that dungeon. Except I don't have blind resist, so it can be annoying if we get the boss who darkens the board for 30 turns. Not a big deal, just embarrassing. You can bring Pixel Archangel for blind immunity, but I couldn't bring myself to sacrifice anyone on this team. Should just stick some random blind resist assists on stuff.

    EDIT: I mean, "casual play" includes a lot of Annihilation difficulty dungeons. Probably the team can clear anything with the right assists and more commitment than I'm willing to put in. Plus it's very cute.

    It's worth doing even if you don't lead with her. She's legitimately a bad-ass light sub, with a really strong Fujin-style active on a relatively low CD.

    Cuddles are nice, but it's mainly holding him while he sleeps. At 2.5 months, he's really bad at sleeping on his own, so one or the other of us has to be awake with him nearly all 24 hours. Parenthood!
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
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  9. Orange

    Orange Red+Yellow = Orange

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    2,679 days of play. Not play much any more. There are many reasons on the decline. The main reason would be the bad luck on pull REM and hardly get the new leader. End up playing the old strong cards over and over. I have tons of cards but most of them are useless as the old cards are not as good as new cards. Most of my friends changed to new strong leader but I didn’t have one and could not pair with them. At ranking above 900, not much fun with old leaders. Finally, I’m in stage of playing less even though new contents could be fun for other players.
     
  10. MisterDrgn

    MisterDrgn You can't take the sky from me. Staff Member

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    I do think a lot of the new, strong leaders are really flexible, so they pair reasonably well with various older leaders. The problem is that most of them are transformation leads, so you have to put together a team with 15+ skills boosts and hastes.
     
  11. RajaNagaSoz

    RajaNagaSoz Maximum Casual

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    I know this is dredging up a nearly month old post, but hey, it's also the most recently replied to in this section so whatever, lol.

    I have to agree in general about PAD currently being either way too hard or way too easy, in that gear-check style.

    It's absolutely obnoxious to have to do so, when if you break down the colors, it could be that one color just outperforms others, and even after playing for a ridiculously long time, still don't have a certain TYPE of lead. (how can i play this long, and not currently have a possible row or blob dark lead with a multiplier higher than x8?!)

    Absorb-over-X is still the most obnoxious mechanic to work around from it's relative rarity to counter with an active (they exist, but IMO, not enough)

    I really wish i had something like Mega Kanna for every color, but not a single other color has what she offers me, so i cram her into every possible team she can go in (100% blind, cloud, & tape (because light got that farmable tape assist not too long ago), an active that doesn't interfere with orbs, but also boosts dmg (for dragon and god, which makes it pretty wide to work with) and skill bumps others)

    There might be a hint of a golden age coming up, if they can get on the ball with spreading out some of the mechanic countering, but a lot of what i've seen coming form the jp side is a lot of nothing-special, for example, i was pretty hype to hear the BNHA collab to be a thing, but then i saw the cards, and for most of it my only thought is "Oh, i... don't need this, i already have better", which feels really strange for new limited collab stuff from a mega popular current anime.

    Off the DMC collab, i snagged Nero, and i got kindof excited to try something new, until i realized that after using him a bit, he's really just an inferior chakeol with a need to transform. Now i'm contemplating just turning him into his assist, though i really hate doing that to collab cards.

    I also don't like researching dungeons, and i absolutely hate taking some team in, say, my Aten team i pair with Dyers, and finding out said dungeon has the only single thing i didn't have a fix for, to just pilfer 50-99 stamina from me.

    For example, i trotted into quetzal in the quest dungeons just earlier, expecting some moderate difficulty, but i'm running a 7x6 board with 125k hp, and killers left and right, a VDP, plenty of time, orb changers, as well as blind, tape, and cloud immunity, auto-FUA from dyer, recovery out the wazoo... except... oh look, absorb-over-X [Arcline] shows up, and i didn't put that active on someone. And of course, it's basically impossible somehow for me to shoot below it, so fuck me, i guess.

    ...at least it took him 60 turns to steal my rcv orbs when i couldn't put them back. :/


    As a whole, the game is bloated, but doing decently well to mitigate that, but failing at times, i can't say it's a dark age for PAD, but it certainly doesn't feel like a golden one right now, even a month after this thread.

    But i'm also just a super-casual, who only has one crown to his name (not that i try), and hasn't even set foot into the real endgame stuff because i know how un-fun it will be.


    Also, transform leads suck in general, they can't be LB'd, can't get super awakens, on top of the skillboost hoarding needed, and then they keep putting out new ones that are equal or subpar to already existing stuff, why bother?! My Aten team for making use of dyer friends only works because somehow the team has a ton of SBs anyway, everything else is a struggle to even make a fun team, much less an actual workhorse team for anything with more difficulty than ganesha's treasure trove.
     
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  12. CloudnineXXX

    CloudnineXXX Well-Known Member

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    I've actually been playing and enjoying PAD a lot more the last couple weeks. After about 20 runs and endless team changes I'm finally comfortable in Alt Arena. There were a LOT of deaths, but it was rewarding to incrementally make team changes to get to a point where I don't feel like fodder. First couple runs the dungeon slaughtered me. Now i can clear the dungeon a reasonable amount of the time. The journey from the first run to the most recent run has been fun/rewarding because I felt like I learned a great deal.

    It is kinda like a golden age for me. This is the most fun I've had playing PAD in a long time.
     
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  13. MisterDrgn

    MisterDrgn You can't take the sky from me. Staff Member

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    I generally agree, except I feel like we've been showered with Fujin style damage absorb actives. For me, the most annoying gimmick these days is definitely spinners. It's a real issue for my current favorite team (VIdeal), particularly since that team doesn't have auto-FUA.

    Oh, and also the transform leads are really strong and generally worth the long CD to transform. Almost all the best leads in the game are transform leads right now. But Nero's kinda meh.

    There are so many different arenas, it provides a good chance to find the right level of difficulty to maximize enjoyment. I've been enjoying 3-player A6--the level of challenge really varies, depending on my partners. Too bad I can't find partners most of the time. 3-player mode is terrible...
     
  14. RajaNagaSoz

    RajaNagaSoz Maximum Casual

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    I'd like to ask where those are and on what, because i'm sitting on exactly three, and only one is an equipment. I won't say i have everything or whatnot, but i feel like i have a rather robust box and have been playing awhile, and it seems pretty sparse.

    Doesn't help i've never gotten a Fujin. The glory of RNG. I'd hazard a guess is a lot came along form collab or seasonals during the time i went on extended haitus from the game and lost about 40% of my friends list, lol.

    Spinners only tend to annoy me when they use some weird random spattering on the board, otherwise i've actually taken advantage of making extra orbs i wanted out of them... on average at least. My chakeol team kindof hates them, lol.

    I find it difficult to keep up with whats the "best" right now, but i've found so so very many transform leads to be massively underwhelming, though that probably has to do a lot with needing the skillboost cramming and my box not having optimal subs for them.

    ...not to mention them disappearing from my list after i go to make a first-draft team to try them out... i wish the 'new' on the FL wouldn't just vanish so quickly sometimes.
     
  15. MisterDrgn

    MisterDrgn You can't take the sky from me. Staff Member

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    Taking a break might be why you don't have more Fujin actives, since it seems like they were tossing those on everything for a while. Here's a the full list (scroll down to see):
    https://ilmina.com/#/ADVANCED_SEARCH/{"activeSkillConditions":{"0":{"type":31,"negate":false,"templateVm":{"type":"absorbVoid"}}}}

    I may have been lucky to pull a lot of the rare seasonals and special machine monsters from this list (bride Eschamali, Uruka, Blujin, Raizer), but you also have monsters from the regular REM (Lugh, Gilgamesh, etc). And of course inheriting one monster and another means anyone can get a Fujin-style active, as long as you have at least one.

    Certainly transform leads can be bad if you don't have the skill boosts--ideally you want to transform them on turn one. But like I said, many or even most of the top leads right now are transform leads: Dante, Yugi, Faska, Norza, etc. Some strong subs, too.
     

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